Tuesday, September 27, 2005

Whrong whay to do it

The Diva thunders in his latest column that it's "untenable, and anti-democratic to suggest that the public should be excluded from [the "H"] debate... This is not an issue to be settled by either executive decree or the desire of the tangata whenua. It should be settled by the residents and ratepayers of Wanganui". Among the "undemocratic" targets singled out is none other than Cr Sue Pepperell.

Her argument, which actually got a fair run in the Chronicle, boils down to the fact that she would be "happy for it to go to a referendum if [she] knew there could be a widespread public education campaign on the subject". Doesn't sound all that undemocratic to us.

And that is it in a nutshell, really. None of the topics included in the referenda are simple, but of all the choices on the Diva's populist shopping list, the "h" issue is potentially the most complex because the arguments both for and against are by no means clear-cut. And to understand the opposing viewpoint requires a preparedness to set aside one's preconceptions and listen to the alternative point of view with respect.

Cr Pepperell's suggestion that this may not occur isn't due to her belief that "Wanganui people are too racist or too dumb to be trusted with such a decision" as the Diva accuses (before adding, disingenuously, "I know that's not what [she is] saying").

Since daring to deviate from the Diva gets you that kind of response, it's understandable Cr Pepperell hasn't come right out and nailed the problem. But LawsWatch will.

Referenda are only effective when put to an informed populace. And that requires that all points of view on an issue are provided, well in advance of the decision, with the means and the opportunity to put opposing arguments and that people are given an opportunity to ask questions in a public forum.

The way in which the Diva has quite deliberately chosen to go about the referendum is the polar opposite of this approach: expecting voters to decide multiple questions (including choosing a new councillor) based on little more than what they may have read on the Mayoral website or seen in the Chronicle, and how much propaganda can be stuffed in an envelope. The result is not inherent ignorance, but it is imposed ignorance. And faced with an uncertain basis on which to make a decision, human nature generally dictates that people choose the status quo.

The Diva's a skilful politician and he knows this better than almost anyone. Incumbents (be they politicians or place names) have an enormous advantage. And he knows that, absent a lengthy and reasoned education campaign and widespread debate, the status quo will prevail. Thus he can claim to be bound by the outcome of a process which was pre-destined the moment he initiated it.

It's cynical manipulative populism at it's worst - but that doesn't seem to bother Crs Marty Linday and Don McGregor, who've changed their minds on the matter after initially voting against it. Are there Diva-shaped bite marks on their ankles, or have they miraculously had some sort of revelation since September 18, when they were implacably opposed? Cr Lindsay says "it's about the people of our community taking the time to understand the issue, have their say and do what’s right".

Listening to whom? In what forum? If they want to ask iwi why the issue is important to them, how do they do that? Who's going to write the "pro-H" case which will presumably be included in the official referenda documentation? And several other questions that we bet Cr Lindsay doesn't know the answer to either. But it's better than having to keep putting ointment on those nasty bites.

Meanwhile, the New Zealand Geographic Board has responded to a Watcher's query as to whether the addition of an "h" would be considered a name change or a spelling correction, confirming it would be viewed as the latter:


I refer to your enquiry of 26 September 2005, in which you sought advice on whether the discussion over Wanganui vs Whanganui (for the city name) would be considered to be correcting a 'doubtful spelling' or a 'name change', and whether it would require the formal assent of the Wanganui District Council.

My view is that any such submission received would be classed as a spelling correction, rather than a change of name. If the Wanganui District Council makes a formal submission proposal to the NZ Geographic Board then I would expect that they would wish to make a formal resolution to support the change, but it is not a pre-requisite for the process set out under the NZ Geographic Board Act.

Wanganui is the official name for the 'city', this being a name that has not been gazetted as an official place name, but which has been published on maps and charts for many years and has been in such long term usage, that the New Zealand Geographic Board, when it considered altering its spelling in the early 90s, decided to leave it as spelt, because of the adverse effects that such a change would have on the community and businesses.

However, for Whanganui River, the 'h' was included - NZ Gazette 1991 page 3226 refers, which notified the Minister of Lands decision of 23 April 1991...

Wendy Shaw
Secretary for the New Zealand Geographic Board
Nga Pou Taunaha o Aotearoa

c/- Land Information New Zealand Toitu te whenua
160 Lambton Quay, Private Box 5501,
Wellington


So at least we now know that much, Mharty. Meanwhile, LawsWatch will again endeavour to act as an oasis of informed debate and will today invite tangata whenua to contribute a post on the issue and, hopefully, to respond to any questions or comments that visitors may care to leave.

Update (7.30 pm): A commenter suggests "get[ting] signatures and lobby[ing] the Geographic Board. As they clearly state it is not a decision of Council any way - in fact its not even a pre-requisite. All we would need is signatures from over 50% of the rating base to show that the change has the majority support of the city. How about this blog actually promoting something positive..."

We're only too happy to do what we can to promote positive initiatives. That's why we've set up the by-election poll, in order to give those who might be thinking of standing some idea of what support they might receive and hopefully encourage them to do so. And why in this very post we've indicated that we're offering LawsWatch to local Iwi to initiate an ongoing dialogue on the "H" during which their point of view won't be marginalised - as it clearly will in anything the Diva writes.

And we'll promote any petition you care to start, Whanganui Fan. But be warned, the crucial word in your suggestion is "lobby". The Board is under no obligation to take notice of any submission, and takes into account a wide variety of factors including:

  • An indication as to whether local Maori authorities have been consulted on the possibility that an original Maori name may already exist for the feature.
  • An indication as to whether consultation has been undertaken with the local community, Department of Conservation, Local Authority, etc., with documentary evidence of their support to any name proposal. NB this consultation is not mandatory but is encouraged by the Board.
Furthermore, as the Board's secretary stated in her reply to the Watcher, quoted above, "Wanganui is the official name for the 'city'... has been published on maps and charts for many years and has been in such long term usage, that the... Board, when it considered altering its spelling in the early 90s, decided to leave it as spelt". So just ten years ago the answer from the Board was a resounding no.

That's leaving aside the logistic difficulty of obtaining the signatures of more than 50% of "the rating base". And minor but nonetheless important questions like, what about non-ratepaying residents? Do they get a say? And how are you going to fairly and impartially present both sides of the case when asking for a signature?

The Council has the cash and the infrastructure to poll 100% of the District, and is nominally our servant. Why wear yourself out sitting at a card table outside supermarkets or going door-to-door with a clipboard when the infrastructure is already there? Rather than the negativity of which you accuse us, we're suggesting supporting and helping Sue Pepperell and others who've identified the deficiencies in the Diva-style referendum process and are trying to correct them. But if you want to go the petition route, rest assured we'll do all we can to help with that, too.

Comments on this post are now closed.

48 comments:

Anonymous said...

Poor Sue should just dump the Diva and go at the by-election.

Anonymous said...

Yeah right, like she will!
More important though is that Vision councillors can disagree and still remain mates because they are all growed-up.

Anonymous said...

"Poor Sue".

Doesn't sound like the SP I know. She is one of the pro-Whanganui faction in Vision. The anti-Wanganui faction being Bob & Michael, that is.

Anonymous said...

Sorry, but Sue looks more like a caged animal!

Anonymous said...

Why are we pissing about attacking the Diva and Sue when all we need to do is get signatures and lobby the geographic board. As they clearly state it is not a decision of Council any way - in fact its not even a pre-requisite.

All we would need is signatures from over 50% of the rating base to show that the change has the majority support of the city. How about this blog actually promoting something positive instead of farting into the wind in private yet again!!!!

LETS BE POSITVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anonymous said...

excellent idea!
shall we try it?
can the `blog` be more widely advertised?
so many people are unaware of it---or turned off by its negativity

Laws Watch said...

How about this blog actually promoting something positive instead of farting into the wind in private yet again!!!!

How charmingly scatalogical of you. At least we're not obsessed with our 3-ply.

We're certainly prepared to do something positive - did you not notice the bit that said we've approached local Iwi with an offer to use the blog to put their point of view, answer questions etc?

Your suggestion has merit, but it's not that simple. Please see the update we're about to post for further information relating to this idea.

Anonymous said...

LawsWatch writes ...

"to understand the opposing viewpoint requires a preparedness to set aside one's preconceptions and listen to the alternative point of view with respect"

Yes ... that's exactly what LW does with anything that emanates from the Mayor, don't you Carol?

Anonymous said...

Are you people STUPID?!
Don't answer that - we already know. The mayor has neatly sabotaged the Geographic Board & just about everyone else by using the referendum to get the rejection & involve OVER 50% of the population.
It's his clever way of making people who vote in the by-election participate in the referendum and vice-versa, and e's using the "reject the letter 'h'" issue to roll out all the conservative forces in the city.
I don't live in Wanganui & I can see that so no wonder you people get bushwhacked by the guy every week.

Laws Watch said...

Neatly put, anonymous @ 7.46 pm. That's pretty much what we've advised Whanganui Fan in our update to this post - a change to the way the referendum is conducted is pretty much the only hope.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
Are you people STUPID?!
Don't answer that - we already know. The mayor has neatly sabotaged the Geographic Board & just about everyone else by using the referendum to get the rejection & involve OVER 50% of the population....

Except that as of this point, he hasn't. While you were calling people stupid, you forgot to notice that Council rejected the motion to include it.

Laws Watch said...

anonymous (sarcastically) said: that's exactly what LW does with anything that emanates from the Mayor

You're right, we don't treat our opponents with the correct level of respect. Let's take a leaf from the book of Michael Brian Laws: Sue Pepperell and ex-councillor Ross Mitchell-Anyon - [think] that Wanganui people are too racist or too dumb to be trusted with such a decision. Now I know that's not what they are saying - but the logical extension of the arguments that they have put forward.

You, anonymous, think people opposed to the Diva spit-roast babies and eat them. Now we know that's not what you're saying, but the logical extension of the arguments you've put forward. Can you feel our respect yet?

Anonymous said...

I read my Chronicle on the web (not bad for Wangavegas) and unless I'm mistaken you had 2 councillors who previously opposed the mayor's plans now supporting him on the referendum.
So, no, I'm not stupid, stupid. I can read.

Anonymous said...

I’m not from Wanganui but this is an interesting website. I’ve been wondering for a while now why Michael Laws keeps appearing on the national media and coming across like a total psychopath.

The other day I heard him on radio talking about how he prefers Swedish blonds to the kind of hitchhiker that was so brutally murdered near Wanganui last week. I just wonder how such a sick person can get away with this sort of thing, let alone how he can parade as mayor of a city like Wanganui.

Having read some of the comments here, I can see it’s not just a media problem but that he really does seem to be unbalanced. We thought John Banks was about as bad as it gets, but Wanganui really does seem to be in trouble with this madman at the helm.

My sympathies to you.

Anonymous said...

'Hello' Laws Mob (or is it just Laws tonight? ) sorry guys but there are many more and different people looking in this blog than you would like ... I know. So if your not 'happy' just get out, we're having fun at the Diva's little power games, and you can not control every thing in Whanganui. Did everyone see the First Person today? Looked like a 'crazy activist' to me!

Anonymous said...

A used car salesman. Yeah, real credible and only been in Wanganui 2 years. Worse than that tho' that wanker Cuthbertson calls himself a "vehicle consultant". Can't we keep these sort of wankers out of Wanganui?

Anonymous said...

What a tosser, anon is. Fuck off back to Auckland (although I'll bet it is Matt or Carol pretending to be from Auckland). I listened to Radio Live yesterday and the mayor didn't say anything about Swedish hitchhikers except in answer to some guy who said he liked to get a new "cultural experience". He was playing with the guy - tosser!
And given that Carol tapes everything the mayor says - don't you Carol - why not post the transcript??
More lies from LW losers.

Anonymous said...

Better a vehicle salesman any day than a snake-oil salesman fresh from disgrace in Hawke's Bay and Wellington, Michael.

Anonymous said...

Oh dear, sounds like Michael is losing it. Go do something therapeutic, like changing a nappy, Michael.

Anonymous said...

The bad thing about those 'First Person' briefs in the Chronicle is that you have to nominate yourself to go on them. In other words, the people they profile are self-defined snotheads.

Anonymous said...

He's mayor and running this city and you're jerking off impotently and doing nothing. You must hate that he has the power, the profile and the family life that you wish you had,anon. I wonder if they can run up a collection for you.

Anonymous said...

When did the mayor get into trouble in Wellington?? Oh that's right, he didn't. Own radio show, TV show, national newspaper column and mayor too. Gee that must piss you off Carol/Matt.

Anonymous said...

Post the Radio Live transcript. Let us judge.

Anonymous said...

"the people they profile are self-defined snotheads. "

Like Michael's Spin Fairy, you mean?

Laws Watch said...

When did the mayor get into trouble in Wellington?? Oh that's right, he didn't.

If you're going to endeavour to re-write the past, do at least try to be creative. We can't be bothered repeating why he was forced to resign from Parliament in disgrace. If you really don't know, read about it here,here, and here where you'll also find references to material published at the time.

If you do know, then you really need to take some rudimentary spin lessons from your hero before you come here and try to deny history.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
A used car salesman. Yeah, real credible and only been in Wanganui 2 years. Worse than that tho' that wanker Cuthbertson calls himself a "vehicle consultant". Can't we keep these sort of wankers out of Wanganui?

9:27 PM, September 27, 2005

Yeah, well Laws the failed polititian and Napier councillor has only been in Wanganui for about two years, and he calls himself a Mayor. Maybe we should ship him out as well.

Anonymous said...

The only way you'll get a transcript of a radio show is to pay a monitoring company for one. The stations don't sit there and transcribe everything that's said. I needed a copy of something and was quoted hundreds of dollars for about ten minutes worth!

I heard the exchange too, and yes, of course it was a joke. A very BAD TASTE joke, which made me (and I'm sure many other listeners) wince.

The problem seems to be that Michael Laws, radio host, is perfectly entitled to say what he likes and needs to be outrageous to try and win an audience from the likes of Leighton Smith. He'd be failing his employers if he didn't try to build an audience the best way he knows how.

Whereas Michael Laws, Mayor of Wanganui, has a duty to not bring this city into disrepute through his actions and words. He's failing the people who elected him to represent them if he doesn't.

It would be hard to find two less compatible jobs. Time to give one up, perhaps.

Anonymous said...

Well said ratepayer. I couldn't agree more.

Anonymous said...

The difference is Lawrence (not your real name, Matt) that the mayor got ELECTED> Hate it, don't you? It's called democracy, dumbo.

Anonymous said...

"a ratepayer" ...
Yet again the mayor told everybody pre-election what he'd do - both the talkback job AND the mayoralty. Martin, Poynter, Bullock all ran against him saying they would be "fulltime" mayors.
So who won the election?
Oh yes, Michael Laws. And brought in 6 of his own team to make sure Wangas was never the same again.
Again - repeat after me - it's called democracy. The winners grin, and the losers lament on websites like this. Oh dear, how sad, never mind.

Anonymous said...

Can't wait for Jay Kuten to return from Boston and bring his bon-headed venom to this page too. I watched the mayor subtly taunt Kuten at a town hall meeeting - funny as a fight.

Anonymous said...

All very boring this thread so let's return to the issue over the 'H'.
If I read this blog entry properly then the mayor's plan to can the concept via the referendum will prove very influential with the boffins down in Wellington. He's a cunning little blighter.
And as I see it we have no option but to vote in the referendum if we support Sue Pep because if we don't then the resuklts get even more skewed in favour of the conservatives.
But by voting in the referendum, we then have this mayor claiming the success of his direct democracy venture. We're screwed either way so I'm going to choose to vote and I think we all should too.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
The difference is Lawrence (not your real name, Matt) that the mayor got ELECTED> Hate it, don't you? It's called democracy, dumbo.

10:02 PM, September 27, 2005

Hate to tell you but its you that's the "DUMBO." Lawrence is my given name and unlike you I am prepared to put it up on Laws-watch and not hide behind an Anon.

It is a piss poor assumption from you that I am Matt, it does you no credit to jump to that conclusion.

If you have been reading the comments on this site you will find Matt has been submitting under his own name.

I believe in democracy but sometimes I must admit in the case of our Mayor "I hate it"

Matt Dutton said...

Lawrence, would you stop pretending to be me? ;)

Or are we carolmattdelphineemmalawrence now?

Anonymous said...

In any event, it's a diversion. The only people who are desperate for names are Lawsmob, because they have no real argument, just abuse. This is Michael Laws' M.O.

The best thing we can do for Whanganui is make sure a strong non-Vision candidate wins the by-election.

Anonymous said...

ljotiythe mayor got ELECTED> Hate it, don't you? It's called democracy, dumbo

"The Local Government Act (2002) sets out the legal requirements governing consultation between a council and its citizens. These include seeking public input into both the annual plan and the LTCCP (long term council community plan). There are also requirements to consult over “issues of significance” and with local iwi under the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi.

All are equally ineffective. They neither interpret the will of the people, nor allow the Wanganui public a real input into council decision-making. In addition, the quality of council communications is so incomprehensible and inaccessible that the vast majority of residents are excluded from any effective engagement.

Meanwhile, all policy determinations concerning ratepayers’ money, remain the exclusive preserve of the councillors themselves. They, in turn, rely almost exclusively upon paid council staff for their information and guidance. Often this becomes a case of the blind leading the blind."

This is the preamble to Vision Wanganui's democracy "policy".

Ask yourself what it is that said council officers are paid to do. Blind?

It's all bullshit. Especially when touting dumbocracy as an alternative.

Anonymous said...

Given that democracy is based upon empowering informed citizens and allowing them to take collective responsibility, ‘Vision Wanganui’ will;

1. Launch personal attacks on anyone who disagrees with us.
1a. Use all available media to
intensify personal attacks.
2. If public debate starts
occuring in a forum outside of
our control, we will:
2a. Attempt to stifle debate
with personal attacks.
2b. Actively seek to suppress
said forum.
3. Mislead the public.
4. Make grandiose offers of
financial support for projects
then pull the rug out from under
them later.

Anonymous said...

"the quality of council communications is so incomprehensible and inaccessible"

The quality is incomprehensible?
The quality is inaccessible?

One too many pinot gris?

Council communications are fairly inaccessible to anyone who doesn't read through screeds of minutes to find out what the issues are and the history involved. But anyone who does go to the trouble of reading them gets attacked as a "loser", right here on Lawswatch.

Hypocrisy is the greatest luxury. Raise the double standard.

Anonymous said...

"The winners grin, and the losers lament on websites like this. Oh dear, how sad, never mind. "

More like, the winners get completely obsessed by what the losers are saying about them, and pull big baby tanties when they can't control the debate.

And I'm laughing at you, Michael. You big baby.

Anonymous said...

Matt Dutton said...
Lawrence, would you stop pretending to be me? ;)

Or are we carolmattdelphineemmalawrence now?

6:02 AM, September 28, 2005

Whoops, Sorry Matt, I was not realy trying to be you :-) Am having enough trouble trying to be myself on this blog.

Wow, now there are five of us who get blamed for other peoples comments.

I guess all of those anon loosers out there who think they know the names of the writers of comments and get it so wrong will never change.

"Oh well" that's life under Division.

Anonymous said...

Anon said....
The bad thing about those 'First Person' briefs in the Chronicle is that you have to nominate yourself to go on them. In other words, the people they profile are self-defined snotheads.

So what was Helen Lawrence doing contacting them in council time? Or our ratepayers time? Surely she has better things to do in her job?. What does she do exactly?

Anonymous said...

She makes monkeys of eople like you and makes sure that LawsWatch doesn't get access to mainstream media. Just a wild guess. She must be worth her weight in gold for the mayor and those of us who are not consumed with being bad losers.
However in answer to the earlier LW posters - what's your solution?
The Vision team won the election fair & square; the people of Wanganui embraced and endorsed the referendum (54% turn out is phenomenal for a non-binding plebiscite); they are now trusting the people again with some interesting topics.
I would rather myself, my mates and the public of this district made decisions about our region than non-elected negatives. Which is why most of Wanganui will take part in the Feb election and why you people should not count your chickens over the by-election result.

Anonymous said...

...consumed with being bad losers...

That's a laugh. No-one here stood against Mickey at election time. We are simply commenting on how his mental instability affects Wanganui.

As for Helen Lawrence, if her job really is as destructive as you claim, it must be a stink job. Imagine having to spend your time removing the flash-glare from bald heads for publicity photos. Can you imagine anything more deadening.

Laws Watch said...

they are now trusting the people again with some interesting topics. I would rather myself, my mates and the public of this district made decisions about our region than non-elected negatives.

We wholeheartedly agree with you, anonymous, that you, your mates, and the rest of Wanganui ought to be able to have a say. More than that, we reckon you'd reach better decisions than the mob at Guyton Street.

But, as Sue Pepperell (a Vision Councillor, not a LawsWatch "whinger") has pointed out, it's not going to work with an ill-informed public.

So we'd like to ask (quite genuinely) where will you find the information on which you will base your vote? From the bit of paper Mickey Mayor writes and sticks in the envelope with the ballot paper?

Laws Watch said...

anonymous said (re Helen Lawrence): She... makes sure that LawsWatch doesn't get access to mainstream media

So her job isn't to put her boss's point of view, argue with journalists to convince them of the rightness of that point of view, and to rubbish the opinions of those opposed (all proper functions of a spinner in today's political environment, sadly) but to stifle dissent and debate entirely by conspiring to deny access. That explains RCP refusing to accept paid advertising then.

Wanganui, 2005? Or someplace much colder, a few decades back? Does our Mayor lay awake at night dreaming of gulags, we wonder?

Anonymous said...

Helen's job is to stroke the ego.

Anonymous said...

Just read to days Chron, not sure why we're paying Terri van Schooten to manage the River Queen 'commercial premiere when the city already has an Events Officer? .. Surely that's doubling up?

Anonymous said...

Yes, but is she a fulltime events manager?