Saturday, August 20, 2005

It's partay time at Michael's


So, as was presaged here in a comment some days earlier, a misplaced Mayoral email has revealed that diVision councillors get together (given the nature of the meetings, "caucus" is far too grand a word) before meetings of the full Council.

Now, as some commenters have pointed out, Vision candidates clearly indicated their alignment when they stood. But then the question arises, did the people who voted for them, do so as individuals or as a team? And the answer, alas, is that we'll never really know, we can only go on anecdote:


I admit to voting for them as a team because I wanted the changes they promoted. I expect them to work as a team to give me the policies I voted for.

That is actually the GOOD thing about this council. The majority have a clear idea of what they're going to do. That's why things are getting done.

Have to disagree with the "we employ individuals" line. It depends who you voted for. I seem to remember that some people stood on party tickets when I voted. They had their affiliation clearly marked on the ballot paper... You may have voted on their individual strengths / weaknesses but I voted for councillors with clear views and policies.

Thats a fair analysis. I chose not to vote for any Vision candidate at the last election -liked Dot but didn't vote for her because I didn't like her leader. I had friends who voted all Vision because that would give them a majority around the council table to do the things they promised. So we can't say, no matter which way we voted, that we were not aware that 'teams' were standing and 'teams' might be elected.

And we mustn't forget, diVision are amateurs when it comes to the politicisation of local government - the Labour Party started it off decades ago. Then again, at least they have a broad membership base and anyone can join:


"Open and transparent?" We can't even join Vision to see how they do things. This is the very opposite of "Open Democracy", and as for transparency, forget it.
And, as other commenters have countered:


We employ councillors not just as dumb voting machines, but for their individual skills. There are 12 councillors because the multiple issues require that many hands on board to get a handle on all of it. By deciding policy direction without the benefit of all that experience and talent, Vision are selling Wanganui short.

Now, when at the next Council meeting, one of the other councillors comes up with a good argument, we know why Vision pays no attention to it.

When policy has already been debated and decided at the Vision caucus, the Vision councillors turn up at the council table. Why would they need to listen to the arguments our other elected representatives bring? They already know how to vote.

Why should policy discussion be confined to the council table? I'd like to think all 13 of the mob I pay for, talk & Debate policy all the time. Even in their sleep, otherwise I'm not getting my money's worth.

Party politics has no (zero, nada, zip) place in local body politics.

Yes, it's unsurprising the diVision (and has there ever been a more appropriate instance of the use of that monicker?) people meet secretly. It's even perfectly proper if they were discussing who they wanted on their ticket for the by-election - that's party political business. But the appointment of a new CEO, and what's going to happen over the Cooks Gardens mess?

We find it reassuring to hear that, as one commenter (supporting Vision) said:


Poor old Dick Hubbard in Auckland [is] pulling his hair out... because deputy Hucker white-ants him every week. Or Kerry Prendergast in Wellington who was lamenting in last month's Dominion-Post that she spends all her time assembling council majorities on minor issues that she has stuff all time for the big picture.
That proponents of one viewpoint or another have to work hard to form temporary coalitions who agree to act in concert means that decisions are being made - hopefully - on the basis of the strength of one argument over that of another (though we're not so naive as to assume there's not horse-trading going on either).

National politics in NZ is littered with examples of elected representatives who didn't like what their parties were doing and, instead of their dissenting voices being welcomed as a sign of good political health (and perhaps swaying the argument from time to time), they've been rounded on and excised from the party. Look no further than the Diva's former hand-puppet Winston Peters for an example.

The majority of people voted for MMP, presumably to try to put an end to one-party control of the House of Representatives, yet some commenters seem okay with it at local level.

An excellent analysis of the effect of party politics on local government (in a UK setting, but applicable anywhere) is the book Party politics and local government by Colin Copus.

Unfortunately the Politicos bookshop (which is where the link takes you) summary tells you very little about the book, but the
Institute of Local Government Studies at the University of Birmingham have this analysis (pdf file) which says:


The book provides evidence to show that political parties have come to dominate the local political landscape to the almost total exclusion of citizens wishing to become involved in local politics outside the framework of a national party. Political parties serve to de-legitimise any political activity not conducted within the very strict definition of local politics constructed and shared by the three main parties. Finally, the book sets out the changes necessary for political parties to make if they are to become meaningful and relevant to the citizens they claim to represent and if local politics is to no longer be the domain of the Leviathan that is the political party.

So Wanganui, it seems, is on a path that risks the "total exclusion of citizens" outside the party framework. And that reference is to parties - the Conservatives, Labour and the Liberal Democrats - that anyone can join, even online. Whereas, as we pointed out earlier, not only is diVision a party it's impossible to join, but the Vision Wanganui web site has disappeared, to be replaced by one devoted entirely to the Diva.

Comments on this post are now closed.

64 comments:

Anonymous said...

Ray got it right when he said there was no open democracy left in this city.

Anonymous said...

The Vision Party can meet by all means but deciding on the CEO should be discussed only at full council with all our voted councilors allowed their input.

Anonymous said...

Who will be 'GK's replacement' ? Well as he's this city's councilor that might depend on the Wanganui voter.

Anonymous said...

Bob Walker and Leonie Brookhammer helped decide the CEO before non-Vision councillors even knew who the candidates are.

Anonymous said...

Bob & Leonie: the councillors not enough people voted for. At least Bob's a Labour party man.

Anonymous said...

Bobby and Leonie all at sea,
In a beautiful clean green boat,
They took lots of people,
For a bit of a ride,
Wrapped up in a party vote.

They couldn't get elected the normal way,
But Mike let them in 'round the back,
Come 'round to my place for dinner and wine,
And I'll cut you a mile of slack,

Now no-one meant anything wrong doing this,
It's an honest mistake once again,
So go easy on all of the Visionaries,
At the next ballot box voting time.

TAPLOL

Anonymous said...

Wanganui, it seems, is on a path that risks the "total exclusion of citizens" outside the party framework.

Why do you think the personal attacks directed at SOS and the CoC complainants were so strident?

Anonymous said...

Everyone is entitled to speak with whom they want and when they want and nobody has the right to accuse them of anything unless they have evidence to support their claims!

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
Everyone is entitled...
...evidence to support their claims!

9:39 PM

Sure, unless they're discussing policy in such a way as to breach the Local Government Act. Speculation is rife that such a breach has occurred, and the mayors email suggests that indeed, discussion on the new CEO, CG, etc. was intended. Open, and transparent.

Anonymous said...

"Evidence to support their claims" How's about this evidence:

"Lying is acceptable." Michael Brian Laws, two weeks ago.

Anonymous said...

He was misquoted. It happens all the time.

Anonymous said...

Anon said:

Sure, unless they're discussing policy in such a way as to breach the Local Government Act. Speculation is rife that such a breach has occurred, and the mayors email suggests that indeed, discussion on the new CEO, CG, etc. was intended. Open, and transparent.

true ?

Laws Watch said...

Anonymous said...
"Lying is acceptable." Michael Brian Laws, two weeks ago.

Anonymous said...
He was misquoted. It happens all the time.


You're alleging he misquoted himself?!

Anonymous said...

You're alleging he misquoted himself?!

Just my little joke. The Diva is so often misquoted "on the record", is he not?

Anonymous said...

"true ?"

How can we tell? That's the problem with this secrecy: we don't know what they're doing in there. But when the mayor says they're going to discuss a new CEO and the CG situation, I hardly think they're in a position to deny that they did exactly that.

Anonymous said...

Mr Laws is trying to 'spin' his way out of this, but it does look bad, and I'm sure people outside this blog, will make up their own minds when it's time to vote.

Anonymous said...

OOPS

Could have sworn Michael said a month or so ago that while he wouldn't be dipping into council funds for sister city junkets, he would be holidaying on the Gold Coast soon at his own expense and would honour the good folk of Toowoomba with a mayoral appearance.

From his Sunday rant today, it seems he instead spent the week at home hunched over a hot blog and running nice, inclusive, caucus meetings while Little Lucy and the rest went off without him for a nice, Laws-free week across the ditch.

He had even gone to the trouble to arrange a stand-in for the week on radio lifeless, so can we assume he just couldn't trust Lawsmob to keep up the posting frenzy or grasp the sophistication (or should that be sophistry) of the mayoral position on lying, in his absence?

Or is there another explanation?

Anonymous said...

So it was only Bob who got to help choose the new CEO.

Anonymous said...

Lawswatch

Just been into visionwanganui.co.nz link from this blog and while the site is about mayor Michael it also has Dots columns, council press releases, vision press releases and copies of vision policies?

How is this new site related entirely to the diva as you claim? Does it just read better making up the facts to suit what you need?

Anonymous said...

You people miss a lot of council scuttlebutt. The mayor told everyone around the place a couple of weeks ago that he was using a couple of weeks to write an update of his Gladiator book to include Norm Hewitt's dancing successes etc. Haven't read the original but apparently it did very well.He's been in Wellington much of the last week.

Anonymous said...

Pretty difficult for the mayoress to be at the Vision meeting on Thursday night AND in Australia, isn't it?

Anonymous said...

Where's the proof that Bob Walker is choosing the CEO?
Far from it because as I read my Chronicle yesterday, the mayor made it explicit to Cr Stevens that it was going to be a secret ballot cast around the council table. Of course it is possible that Cr Stevens can't read - after reading the e-mail correspondence in the paper y'day I thought he just looked silly.

Anonymous said...

There's a bar in Hamilton called Bentan Twisted. Who knew Wanganui would get so many of its refugees?

Anonymous said...

"He's been in Wellington much of the last week."

Yes, I heard from contacts in Wellington that he was seen there with Winston. Now, when's that list announcement due again?

Anonymous said...

That's strange. Winston WASN'T in Wellington this week. He was campaigning. Laws has already said (Newstalk ZB) three months ago that he's not interested in a parliamentary seat. Altho' I think he said "this time".

Anonymous said...

Yes, Vision is an unusual mix of party affiliations - strong Labour types, a Green and Nats.

Anonymous said...

I'd vote for him to get him out of this town, but I'm afraid that might be just too easy.

Anonymous said...

Yeah you are misquoting Laws on lying. Or rather you're taking him badly out of context if you look at the Sunday Star-Times site on www.stuff.co.nz

Anonymous said...

Mate, you're just one of 30,000 adult voters in the Wanganui District. He won the election fair & square and bought most of his team in with him. You got spanked. Eat shit.

Anonymous said...

Does anyone know how many council meetings the Vision members have missed?. Do they get paid for the meeting even if they haven't attended? I know Ray's missed tons!

Anonymous said...

There are no meeting fees paid because they all get a salary, except the mayor who gifts his away. There seems to be a scrap in the wind over meeting fees for the hearings committee. Overheard an exchange between a councillor and A.N.Other last week because one councillor wants to pocket their salary plus the hearings meetings fee. Any idea who?

Anonymous said...

Sorry, but I did vote for some of the team and don't mind some things they are doing, but it's the way the Mayor acts that pisses me off, he's no statesman this town could of done with.

Anonymous said...

Who is on the hearings committee?

Anonymous said...

like I said, get over it. He won. And he won't be changing his ways because of a few moaners and whingers.

Anonymous said...

Remember, more people voted against him than for him, I blame Charles for the mess we're in.

Anonymous said...

On council salaries.
Most councils have converted from meetings fees PLUS a small salary, to salaries and no fee. Easier administration but also it discourages unnevessary meetings and you have to remember that local govt is full of people who NEED the money.
Councillors need only attend the committees they're officially on plus the full council meetings but as our rural community escapee proves, you can be overseas and still collect.

Anonymous said...

Your dead right he will not change but the next elections will be the true test, if he has the balls to stand.

Anonymous said...

He got 43% of the vote.
Next best was Martin with 27%.
That's some distance by any stretch of the imagination.

Anonymous said...

So you want him to stand? Are you crazy?? He will get re-elected on the back of all his populist agenad of referenda, lowering rates and smacking over the arts fraternity. You're not living anywhere near political realityville, are you?
I think we should be very suspicious of those who use this blog to try and goad Laws into standing again. What's their game??

Anonymous said...

OPEN DEMOCRACY IN WANGANUI
Is Ray Stevens right?
Let's compare 2005 with 2004 - post-election to pre-election.

1. We now know that the WDC forestry investments are worthless. The last council hid this information including Ray Stevens.
2. We now know that $1 million was not "pledged" or "promised" to the SAG extension.
3. We now have referenda that give us the opportunity of directly setting council policy.
4. We now have a mayor who has monthly Town Hall meetings and goes out to both suburbs and rural areas and holds quarterly forums.
5. We now have a policy that all official info requests are released publicly;
6. We now know the true state of the council's accounts and debts;
7. Even the council meetings are held in more publicy accessible buildings;
8. We even got an explanation this year as to where our rates are being spent, and how they're broken down - delivered to our door;
9. As a council watcher, I've noticed less items in confidence than in previous years - and I know how much all the council staff are getting paid;
10. We have a mayor who openly tells you what he's thinking and why and is as direct as I've ever known any politician.

Do we have "open government"? I'd say the simple answer is is that its a lot more open than when Chas and Ray were running the show.

Laws Watch said...

Yeah you are misquoting Laws on lying. Or rather you're taking him badly out of context if you look at the Sunday Star-Times site on www.stuff.co.nz

A direct link to the story itself can be followed by clicking our comment above.

But here, for the sake of accurate debate, is the releavnt piece: Might I suggest a new order that is grounded in the permissive rather than the negative?... Third, lying is acceptable. The taboo against bearing false witness causes ethical qualms for everybody every day... There should be one simple rule when it comes to lying. If it has a good intent, then it is acceptable.

Trouble is, under that "imperative" (as it's called in the article) the only possible arbiter as to the intent of the lie - at least until it's discovered - is the liar themselves.

Anonymous said...

as is usual, LawsWatch - wrong again. Then read his immediate 4th rule - no lie is permissible that is in one's best interests. Misquoting selectively is a form of lying.

Laws Watch said...

...read his immediate 4th rule - no lie is permissible that is in one's best interests.

No, what it says is: Fourth, good intent is not what is good for me. There is no specific reference to lying anywhere in the "4th rule".

This could well apply to lying, but that is not the example which is cited, which is: The greatest sin, apart from cruelty, is greed.

It would seem that avarice and/or venality is what's being discussed in that section. And no one has ever accused the Diva of those vices. Not here, at least.

Misquoting selectively is a form of lying.

We have linked to the article above, and we'll do so again now, where anyone can read it in full and draw their own conclusions. No doubt you'd prefer your hero's (or is it your own, anonymous?) text reproduced here in it's entirety, but we don't have the room, and it's archived elsewhere.

Anonymous said...

How many of these meetings do Vision have per year? From ML's email they would seem to be whenever ML calls one.

"10. We have a mayor who openly tells you what he's thinking and why and is as direct as I've ever known any politician."

Like "I don't think in terms of Vision and non-Vision on this Council".

I think he just tells you what you want to hear.

Anonymous said...

Put the quote in the context. I've yet to read that here. Will check the Chronicle & see what they've recorded. Having said that, don't blame him for picking his company around the council table if Rayt Stevens hissy fit is any indication.

Anonymous said...

The Chronicle story reads:


He said Vision Wanganui had yet to decide whether it would put forward a candidate for the by-election, but it was probable.

“But I don’t think in terms of Vision and non-Vision in this council.”

Mr Laws didn’t think the election of a non-Vision candidate would greatly affect his council’s operation, although in terms of numbers it would deprive Vision of its dominance, with six Visionites and seven independents instead of the present opposite split.

“I have said this from day one: in general policy terms this council is one, and one person is not going to deflect or amplify what this council is doing,” Mr Laws said.


***********

Supposing that he was correctly quoted, then what's Ray Stevens beef??
"In general policy terms this council is one ..."
And given that they signed off the Annual Plan unanimously (altho' Cr Ray wasn't at the AP meetings was he? Didn't attend one?, then the problem is what exactly.
Vision councillors meet to discuss the progress of Vision pre-election promises, according to the mayor. That leaves a hell of a lot of things that then constitutes "general policy" as one would expect.
What fumes was Stevens breathing?

Anonymous said...

Ray was conspicuously absent last council but would moan to the 'paper to remind us he was a councillor drawing our shilling.
He's just repeating his previous behaviour.

Anonymous said...

Proof is in the pudding, I guess.
If there WAS a party approach to council, then Vision would have ALL the chairmanships. I've checked the council website and Crs Wills, Dahya and McGregor have chairs and important ones. I note Ray Stevens doesn't - is that the problem?

Anonymous said...

If something like the appointment of a CEO winds up on the agenda of these caucus meetings (despite Laws suddendly, under the media spotlight, deciding they'll be a secret vote) then obviously the bloc is to do with a lot more than general policy as set out pre-election and the monitoring of that general policy.
Spin Michael, spin.

Anonymous said...

Cheerleader anon said:

Supposing that he was correctly quoted, then what's Ray Stevens beef??
"In general policy terms this council is one ..."

Steven's "beef" is that Laws was lying, and the fact that Vision have exclusive meetings where they discuss council business is proof of that. If you think what Vision are doing is so right, why is Michael trying to pretend they're not doing it? Perhaps he understands the LGA a bit better than you do.

Anonymous said...

No, Stevens is being his usual dickhead self.
If he read the e-mails I saw on my front page of the Chronicle then it was obvious Laws was talking in general terms about council reaching a critical phase. And even if they DID discuss those topics, so what? Discussion does not equal action - Laws made it explicit in the e-mail to Stevens that the cEO is a "free" vote (ie its not an item of Vision policy).

Anonymous said...

As Cr Stevens when he knew about the forestry receipts going bad. Then ask him about open government.
The papers that were publicly released last year make it clear that this administration is a dramatic improvement on the last.

Anonymous said...

Laws didn't decide AFTER the Chronicle story that there should be a secret ballot on the chief executive's appointment. The Stevens e-mails make it clear that was decided even BEFORE the Vision meeting.
Here's a wild thought: why not ask the other Vision councillors?

Anonymous said...

Here's a wild thought: why not ask the other Vision councillors?

Yes, one might have expected Sean to do that in the original story. They needed to be ambushed on this one before they had a chance to get their stories straight.

And a secret ballot, eh? that way we'll never know if they voted along party lines.

Anonymous said...

Laws committed Vision to "open government". Now Stevens has revealed the lie. They release information about financial matters as it suits them, but where is the openness and transparency around "The Heart of the City", or the bullying of the SGTB.

Anonymous said...

As Cr Stevens when he knew about the forestry receipts going bad. Then ask him about open government.

Typical red herring. The forestry receipts have not "gone bad". We still have an enormous assett. When forestry prices recover, for example as oil becomes scarcer, the is the possibility that the asset will regain its value.

The real issue for Whanganui's future success is population. Policies to reverse the decline in our numbers will be hard to implement, as I suspect this is a national phenomenon.

Driving skilled creative workers away by demonstrating hostility to artists ain't gonna work.

Anonymous said...

its wanganui, dickhead. Lose the h.

Anonymous said...

Good idea from the mayor on reducing council numbers. Wonder if he was thinking Stevens because he's like Ronginui in not attending meetings but pocketing the salary.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
its wanganui, dickhead. Lose the h.

10:07 AM

Just testing...
We're about to have a referendum on just that question. You calling me "dickhead" says something about you, not me.

Anonymous said...

If we're trying to increase Wanganui's population, we may need more representatives; we certainly won't need fewer.

Anonymous said...

It's Whanganui, guys. Wanganui has no meaning. Big Harbour; Long wait: Whanganui is a pun based on the long wait to get across the big harbour while travelling South.

Anonymous said...

Look, if we reduce the number of councillors, we still get all the extra people in Vision Wanganui who have their say, so we've still got enough minds working on the problem.

I love the way all the committees have a Vision majority. Oh, except Harbour, the poisoned chalice. That one's 50/50.

Anonymous said...

Get over it! That's what democracy delivered - a Vision majority & mayor - so that's what You work with.

Anonymous said...

Let's just wait and see what Wanganui gives us in the election in 6 mouths time shall we?